Post by Eliard on Dec 23, 2013 15:50:09 GMT -5
In which Vithy (me) utterly crushes Woundheir. This guy. smh
From warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:138835#71 (and on down):
From warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:138835#71 (and on down):
Woundheir:
Name one map type that Loki or Ash excels at compared to other frames. Hint, it doesn't exist.
Woundheir:
Hint, I have and its easy. Hint, Nyx CC is better, Frost snow globes are better, Trinity invincibility is better, and Nekros CC is better as well. And then you have several frames with high damage AoEs that are more useful than both frames. And Rhino with the weapon damage boost to group. Vauban has decent CC as well, certainly better than Loki.
Woundheir:
WTF are you talking about? Chaos costs 75 energy, while Radial Disarm costs 100 energy. Radial Disarm costs more not less. Without additional mods Chaos also lasts 25 sec, which should be more than enough. 39.5 sec with both mods. Radial Disarm also doesn't stop them from attacking, just using ranged. Meaning they swarm and try to corner you and your team rather than fighting each other. And Nyx has Absorb as well, which is amazing in survival.
I'm not saying any one CC method is perfect. Which is why you use them in conjunction with each other. I would argue that Snow Globe DOES save you from Napalms if modded correctly for extra range and your group isn't stupid enough to stand near the edge, but nevertheless other CCs should be used in things such as long survivals. Ideally not things that make NPCs run up to and melee the group down while you are huddled in a snow globe. More like things that make your enemies attack each other, raise them in the air, make your group invincible 10+ seconds, etc.
I'm sorry but your argument against Blessing only applies to really shitty players, which I am unable to relate to in any way. Those players should not be attempting difficult content in the first place. Shield Lancers are really easy to avoid. You flank them and shoot. Or hell, run around in circles. The only thing the player can do that results in what you stated is stand in one spot without moving while a Lancer charges them with no help from their allies.
By Nekros CC I meant both Terrify (Which increases damage against them as well BTW) and Shadows of the Dead, which fight for you and attract enemies. They also have the health loot abil for extra health orbs, ammo, etc; although I think it is broken ATM?
Lol @ the "At high levels, damage-oriented AoEs are far outdone by weapons and utility abilities." At any levels many frames have weapon damage increasing abilities. Some of which also decrease enemy damage, fire speed, etc. Examples: Molecular Prime (Direct damage + 2x weapon damage multiplier against affected enemies + enemy speed decrease), Antimatter Drop (4x weapon damage fired at it as an AoE explosion), Roar (50% damage boost to group), Hysteria (A ton of damage with full power strength mods + invincibility), two Volt abilities, etc etc.
The only thing I made Roar sound like was an increase to group weapon damage from a Warframe that can take a lot of damage. The other frames in group would prevent the group from dying with CC, the Rhino would buff the group and depending on build maybe tank melee that get close.
It depends on what map you end up on. Vauban are very good at utilizing choke points for CC. More importantly they group up enemies while making them not attack, which make things such as Molecular Prime much easier to cast. An alternative is the Trinity's Blessing to make melee range abilities much safer. And of course there are other strategies.
The fact of the matter is that Loki are a beginner frame that exists to introduce you to the game. It's abilities simply cannot compete with other Warframes' equivalents. I's CC isn't really even a CC because they still attack you and you are left with other issues the Loki created. And the positive benefits it provides are overshadowed by much better alternaticves such as group invincibility, true CC, shielded areas, etc. The one thing it has going for it is stealth, which does not fit too well into this game. Simply because you enjoy using it's abilities does not somehow make it a good Warframe. Feel free to use it as much as you like. Just do yourself a favor and unequip it for something better when playing difficult content.
Woundheir:
Loki can't use Fleeting Expertise either if they want to use invisibility, which is pretty much their main ability. Why would you make a "disarm build"? It is inferior to other Warframes' CC... And they CAN hit you, they will run up and do so. And you are now dealing with movement issues since they will crowd around you, whereas Blessing/Snow Globe do not have such issues. I kind of gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were invisible while running into the middle of hostile NPCs. If you are claiming to have done that in high duration/level survival without invisibility you are lying. Simple as that.
Snow Globe modded for range is not a gamble. It helps prevent a lot of issues. Ranged tend to just keep shooting at you with it up, they aren't going to run into the bubble unless the frost placed it poorly. Even if some do they are slowed, and like I already said you can use other viable cc in conjunction with Snow Globe.
Actually I stated that if you enjoy playing Loki go ahaid and do that in lower difficulty content, but don't make BS excuses as to why you are using an inferior warframe. New players, that don't even know how useless Loki is compared to other frames, should not be attempting difficult content.
The last time I was knocked down by a shield lancer was like 3 months ago. And it took me a couple seconds to get back up and I was fine. Your example of several lancers cornering you has never happened to me, even when I had no clue what I was doing. Now if it could literally dis-arm Ancients I could see a use. But it can't. I would assume the reason you get hit by so many lancers is because you are running up to them trying to cast disarm...
It is great and all that you know the difference between a damage spell and utility spells... but it has no relevance to anything I said. (You actually have it slightly wrong though, CC is utility, damage is not, thus Roar is not a utility skill.) I am not confused about anything. You seem to be though.
"RE:" (Which should be ""I.E.:" for you, but ironically works for me since this is a direct response) We were talking about the usefulness of different Warframes, and I was saying that bringing that warframe is more useful than bringing a Loki. Your implecations are invalid. I initially stated that damage abilities would be more useful than what little Loki has to offer, you replied that damage abilities were not as good as weapon damage, and I gave that as one of several examples of why you are wrong. (Because it multiplies weapon damage.)
If the description told you to jump off a bridge would you? The description is just wrong. Its sort of like how Saryn's description tries to overplay how useful Shed is. It isn't even worth wasting a slot on. Or how Volt is supposed to be an "alternative to gunplay", yet one of it's best abilities is a shield that enhances your guns' damage... It is a Warframe with invisibility and a really poor CC. There are plenty of equivalents. And lol @ decoy, you make it more and more obvious that you have no high level experience. Decoys don't scale at all, so they die ultra fast. They also create line of sight issues, which is especially annoying for other players.
And simply not dying with a frame that turns invisible is not an accomplishment. If you aren't really contributing to the group and just sort of doing your own thing, then why play a multiplayer game? I'm assuming you mean the old rating system 100, which is not impressive either. Difficult content doesn't even really go by level any more.
Woundheir:
Vilthy [sic], actually you lack the experience to realize that you are grasping at straws and making up invalid discussion points based on false information for high difficulty content.
And the Decoy guides actually suggest intentionally exploiting glitches in the game such as making it fall through the ground or placing it in unreachable cracks. When a Warframe NEEDS to glitch out their abilities in ways not intended to be possible just to be sort of useful, but still less so than other Warframes... it speaks volumes on how useless the Warframe is IMO. I certainly would say that glitching your abilities is not using them properly.
Name one map type that Loki or Ash excels at compared to other frames. Hint, it doesn't exist.
Vithy:
Try doing a 70+ minute Grineer/Corpus survival without a 50-meter/25-energy Radial Disarm Loki. Hint, it doesn't exist. ~_~
/* This was sarcasm mode but Woundheir didn't get it. As if the emote weren't obvious enough. */
Try doing a 70+ minute Grineer/Corpus survival without a 50-meter/25-energy Radial Disarm Loki. Hint, it doesn't exist. ~_~
/* This was sarcasm mode but Woundheir didn't get it. As if the emote weren't obvious enough. */
Hint, I have and its easy. Hint, Nyx CC is better, Frost snow globes are better, Trinity invincibility is better, and Nekros CC is better as well. And then you have several frames with high damage AoEs that are more useful than both frames. And Rhino with the weapon damage boost to group. Vauban has decent CC as well, certainly better than Loki.
Vithy:
In the order you listed:
Chaos with any sort of appreciable duration costs much more energy to use, and when Chaos runs out, everything will still have guns and be suddenly VERY interested in shooting you with them; Disarm built correctly is minimum cost and is always permanent.
Snow Globes don't save you from Scorches or Napalms, or even keep Shield Lancers from knocking you down or out of them; Disarm can. The only thing I might give to Globe over Disarm is that it can block Scorpion harpoons (those are annoying as hell).
Blessing's invincibility is also temporary and won't save you from knockdowns or being stunlocked in a corner by four Shield Lancers; Disarm means you won't even have to deal with all that crap in the first place. (I don't know how their shields count as "guns", but they lose them when they get disarmed, meaning no bash attack.)
I assume that by "Nekros CC" you mean Terrify, which has a limited number of affected targets; Disarm affects all targets within range.
At high levels, damage-oriented AoEs are far outdone by weapons and utility abilities.
Rhino's Roar is nice, no argument there. But you make it sound like it would help save a group that's being shot at by more level 80 enemies than they can target at once; Disarm actually can, by taking away their guns and letting you pick them off from a safe spot.
Vauban's CC is only good for things within range, meaning you don't get as many Grineer in your Bastille/Vortex simply because they don't bum-rush the way Infested do; Disarm can not only affect a huge radius, it can make Bastille and Vortex far more effective against ranged enemies by forcing them to run at you.
In fact, Disarm in tandem with almost any of the abilities you listed makes them much more effective in general. The fact of the matter is that Loki is far from useless; after all, he equals or trumps all the things the frames you listed can do. Being able to take away the ranged variable when you fight non-Infested means if you're in a spot the enemy can't be, you won't get hurt. That's useful.
In the order you listed:
Chaos with any sort of appreciable duration costs much more energy to use, and when Chaos runs out, everything will still have guns and be suddenly VERY interested in shooting you with them; Disarm built correctly is minimum cost and is always permanent.
Snow Globes don't save you from Scorches or Napalms, or even keep Shield Lancers from knocking you down or out of them; Disarm can. The only thing I might give to Globe over Disarm is that it can block Scorpion harpoons (those are annoying as hell).
Blessing's invincibility is also temporary and won't save you from knockdowns or being stunlocked in a corner by four Shield Lancers; Disarm means you won't even have to deal with all that crap in the first place. (I don't know how their shields count as "guns", but they lose them when they get disarmed, meaning no bash attack.)
I assume that by "Nekros CC" you mean Terrify, which has a limited number of affected targets; Disarm affects all targets within range.
At high levels, damage-oriented AoEs are far outdone by weapons and utility abilities.
Rhino's Roar is nice, no argument there. But you make it sound like it would help save a group that's being shot at by more level 80 enemies than they can target at once; Disarm actually can, by taking away their guns and letting you pick them off from a safe spot.
Vauban's CC is only good for things within range, meaning you don't get as many Grineer in your Bastille/Vortex simply because they don't bum-rush the way Infested do; Disarm can not only affect a huge radius, it can make Bastille and Vortex far more effective against ranged enemies by forcing them to run at you.
In fact, Disarm in tandem with almost any of the abilities you listed makes them much more effective in general. The fact of the matter is that Loki is far from useless; after all, he equals or trumps all the things the frames you listed can do. Being able to take away the ranged variable when you fight non-Infested means if you're in a spot the enemy can't be, you won't get hurt. That's useful.
WTF are you talking about? Chaos costs 75 energy, while Radial Disarm costs 100 energy. Radial Disarm costs more not less. Without additional mods Chaos also lasts 25 sec, which should be more than enough. 39.5 sec with both mods. Radial Disarm also doesn't stop them from attacking, just using ranged. Meaning they swarm and try to corner you and your team rather than fighting each other. And Nyx has Absorb as well, which is amazing in survival.
I'm not saying any one CC method is perfect. Which is why you use them in conjunction with each other. I would argue that Snow Globe DOES save you from Napalms if modded correctly for extra range and your group isn't stupid enough to stand near the edge, but nevertheless other CCs should be used in things such as long survivals. Ideally not things that make NPCs run up to and melee the group down while you are huddled in a snow globe. More like things that make your enemies attack each other, raise them in the air, make your group invincible 10+ seconds, etc.
I'm sorry but your argument against Blessing only applies to really shitty players, which I am unable to relate to in any way. Those players should not be attempting difficult content in the first place. Shield Lancers are really easy to avoid. You flank them and shoot. Or hell, run around in circles. The only thing the player can do that results in what you stated is stand in one spot without moving while a Lancer charges them with no help from their allies.
By Nekros CC I meant both Terrify (Which increases damage against them as well BTW) and Shadows of the Dead, which fight for you and attract enemies. They also have the health loot abil for extra health orbs, ammo, etc; although I think it is broken ATM?
Lol @ the "At high levels, damage-oriented AoEs are far outdone by weapons and utility abilities." At any levels many frames have weapon damage increasing abilities. Some of which also decrease enemy damage, fire speed, etc. Examples: Molecular Prime (Direct damage + 2x weapon damage multiplier against affected enemies + enemy speed decrease), Antimatter Drop (4x weapon damage fired at it as an AoE explosion), Roar (50% damage boost to group), Hysteria (A ton of damage with full power strength mods + invincibility), two Volt abilities, etc etc.
The only thing I made Roar sound like was an increase to group weapon damage from a Warframe that can take a lot of damage. The other frames in group would prevent the group from dying with CC, the Rhino would buff the group and depending on build maybe tank melee that get close.
It depends on what map you end up on. Vauban are very good at utilizing choke points for CC. More importantly they group up enemies while making them not attack, which make things such as Molecular Prime much easier to cast. An alternative is the Trinity's Blessing to make melee range abilities much safer. And of course there are other strategies.
The fact of the matter is that Loki are a beginner frame that exists to introduce you to the game. It's abilities simply cannot compete with other Warframes' equivalents. I's CC isn't really even a CC because they still attack you and you are left with other issues the Loki created. And the positive benefits it provides are overshadowed by much better alternaticves such as group invincibility, true CC, shielded areas, etc. The one thing it has going for it is stealth, which does not fit too well into this game. Simply because you enjoy using it's abilities does not somehow make it a good Warframe. Feel free to use it as much as you like. Just do yourself a favor and unequip it for something better when playing difficult content.
Vithy:
Yes, at base Chaos costs 75 energy and Disarm costs 100. But if you want your Chaos to have any appreciable duration, you can't put much Fleeting Expertise on it. Disarm is not affected by duration, so Loki can hit the 75% efficiency cap and not give a care. I did say "Disarm built correctly". And yes, they don't turn on each other with Disarm, but that doesn't matter if they still can't hit you. Absorb can be nice in Survival until you reach the point where it doesn't kill everything that's attacking you - in which case Nyx is the one that's promptly downed, being a 15-armor frame and all. And a downed ally opens up a whole new mess of problems for the squad.
RE: Snow Globe being modded for extra range: Bit of a gamble there, especially when you consider that an extra-large globe means things are more likely to get inside where they can shoot at you freely, and that the slowing field does NOT expand with the rest of the globe. There's a reason Frosts that play defensively with Globe generally have no Stretch or limited Stretch. Use it at your own risk.
Let me just say right here that your dickish attitude towards less experienced players is childish and uncalled for. So stop that, because you sucked at Warframe when you started too.
Back to business: We're talking about frame usefulness, right? Do you deny that Shield Lancers being unable to knock down players is useful? Because I'm sure that even such a veteran player as yourself has been knocked down by one and paid dearly for it from time to time. Accidents happen, people make mistakes. Like I said, why would you chance relying on Blessing (with that horrifyingly long cast time) to save your ass from such a situation when you could just avoid it in the first place?
Shadows of the Dead and extra damage against enemies are nice, yes. But SotD takes so long to cast, you'd better hope you're in a nook somewhere (in which case, the AI might bug out and cause them to just shoot at walls; have they fixed that yet?). And you can't cast Terrify until the current cast is out, so you can only affect one group of enemies at a time; are you going to go look specifically for the affected targets in the horde? (And I think Desecrate worked fine last time I checked. That is a very useful skill as far as oxygen packs go.)
As far as Damage vs Utility abilities goes, you seem to be confused regarding their definitions. If people cast the ability itself just to inflict damage, then it is damage-based (e.g. World on Fire, Radial Javelin, Crush. These things do direct damage and nothing more). If people cast it for other reasons, then it is utility (e.g. Vortex for localized CC, Rhino Stomp for AoE stasis CC, Smoke Bomb to revive someone unhindered). Molecular Prime, then, is a utility ability because at high levels, nobody really gives a crap about 800 base damage per explosion; it's more about the slowing effect and the double damage. All of the abilities you listed there are utility, not damage, with the sole exception of Antimatter Drop - that is one of the few damage-only abilities that remains viable at high levels (and that is due to its ability to absorb damage from your weapons, which do much more damage than abilities in the first place). Seriously, try taking out some level 100 things with, let's say, just Rhino Stomp. No Roar, no weapons. You wouldn't be able to because the damage is crap at that point - it's the stasis that matters when you're facing stuff that giggles and wiggles its toes when you tickle it with 1k damage.
RE: Rhino Roar: Technically, we were talking about crowd control, and you submitted that Roar increases team damage, thereby implying that you thought of it as a CC ability, which it isn't. Not much more to say about that. As far as its utility goes, it's a great skill. No arguments there.
Vauban's good for chokepoints, yes. I'm just pointing out that Loki helps make it easier for him to maximize his skills' effectiveness by forcing ranged things to run toward you.
Loki may be a starter warframe, but maybe you didn't notice that the description suggests he is for advanced players? Perhaps you think he is useless compared to other frames because he's not an easy frame to play and you haven't quite gotten the hang of it. Every frame excels at different things and Loki is exceptional in that respect. You say that he's no match for other frames' equivalents, but the fact of the matter is that there are really no equivalents. Molt comes close to Decoy, sure, but you have to put that where Saryn herself can be; you can't wedge Molt between two large crates or under a staircase where it will attract attention but can't be hit like with Decoy, but you CAN put it in midair, which you can't do with Decoy. Ash may have invisibility too and his even staggers enemies in range, but Loki's lasts longer and can be cast in midair. Switch Teleport - well, even I honestly don't use that much except for getting around, heh. But nothing works on the scale of Disarm. There are no equivalents and whether I enjoy the frame or not (I hate Nova, but I don't deny she's useful) has no bearing on whether a frame is viable or not.
And just for the record, I've been in level 100+ Grineer Survivals on that Loki without being downed once when there were Rhinos going down every so often. "Something better when playing difficult content," eh. It's all down to the player. Tactics. Awareness. Unless you picked a godawful frame for the job, it's on you. Not the frame.
Yes, at base Chaos costs 75 energy and Disarm costs 100. But if you want your Chaos to have any appreciable duration, you can't put much Fleeting Expertise on it. Disarm is not affected by duration, so Loki can hit the 75% efficiency cap and not give a care. I did say "Disarm built correctly". And yes, they don't turn on each other with Disarm, but that doesn't matter if they still can't hit you. Absorb can be nice in Survival until you reach the point where it doesn't kill everything that's attacking you - in which case Nyx is the one that's promptly downed, being a 15-armor frame and all. And a downed ally opens up a whole new mess of problems for the squad.
RE: Snow Globe being modded for extra range: Bit of a gamble there, especially when you consider that an extra-large globe means things are more likely to get inside where they can shoot at you freely, and that the slowing field does NOT expand with the rest of the globe. There's a reason Frosts that play defensively with Globe generally have no Stretch or limited Stretch. Use it at your own risk.
Let me just say right here that your dickish attitude towards less experienced players is childish and uncalled for. So stop that, because you sucked at Warframe when you started too.
Back to business: We're talking about frame usefulness, right? Do you deny that Shield Lancers being unable to knock down players is useful? Because I'm sure that even such a veteran player as yourself has been knocked down by one and paid dearly for it from time to time. Accidents happen, people make mistakes. Like I said, why would you chance relying on Blessing (with that horrifyingly long cast time) to save your ass from such a situation when you could just avoid it in the first place?
Shadows of the Dead and extra damage against enemies are nice, yes. But SotD takes so long to cast, you'd better hope you're in a nook somewhere (in which case, the AI might bug out and cause them to just shoot at walls; have they fixed that yet?). And you can't cast Terrify until the current cast is out, so you can only affect one group of enemies at a time; are you going to go look specifically for the affected targets in the horde? (And I think Desecrate worked fine last time I checked. That is a very useful skill as far as oxygen packs go.)
As far as Damage vs Utility abilities goes, you seem to be confused regarding their definitions. If people cast the ability itself just to inflict damage, then it is damage-based (e.g. World on Fire, Radial Javelin, Crush. These things do direct damage and nothing more). If people cast it for other reasons, then it is utility (e.g. Vortex for localized CC, Rhino Stomp for AoE stasis CC, Smoke Bomb to revive someone unhindered). Molecular Prime, then, is a utility ability because at high levels, nobody really gives a crap about 800 base damage per explosion; it's more about the slowing effect and the double damage. All of the abilities you listed there are utility, not damage, with the sole exception of Antimatter Drop - that is one of the few damage-only abilities that remains viable at high levels (and that is due to its ability to absorb damage from your weapons, which do much more damage than abilities in the first place). Seriously, try taking out some level 100 things with, let's say, just Rhino Stomp. No Roar, no weapons. You wouldn't be able to because the damage is crap at that point - it's the stasis that matters when you're facing stuff that giggles and wiggles its toes when you tickle it with 1k damage.
RE: Rhino Roar: Technically, we were talking about crowd control, and you submitted that Roar increases team damage, thereby implying that you thought of it as a CC ability, which it isn't. Not much more to say about that. As far as its utility goes, it's a great skill. No arguments there.
Vauban's good for chokepoints, yes. I'm just pointing out that Loki helps make it easier for him to maximize his skills' effectiveness by forcing ranged things to run toward you.
Loki may be a starter warframe, but maybe you didn't notice that the description suggests he is for advanced players? Perhaps you think he is useless compared to other frames because he's not an easy frame to play and you haven't quite gotten the hang of it. Every frame excels at different things and Loki is exceptional in that respect. You say that he's no match for other frames' equivalents, but the fact of the matter is that there are really no equivalents. Molt comes close to Decoy, sure, but you have to put that where Saryn herself can be; you can't wedge Molt between two large crates or under a staircase where it will attract attention but can't be hit like with Decoy, but you CAN put it in midair, which you can't do with Decoy. Ash may have invisibility too and his even staggers enemies in range, but Loki's lasts longer and can be cast in midair. Switch Teleport - well, even I honestly don't use that much except for getting around, heh. But nothing works on the scale of Disarm. There are no equivalents and whether I enjoy the frame or not (I hate Nova, but I don't deny she's useful) has no bearing on whether a frame is viable or not.
And just for the record, I've been in level 100+ Grineer Survivals on that Loki without being downed once when there were Rhinos going down every so often. "Something better when playing difficult content," eh. It's all down to the player. Tactics. Awareness. Unless you picked a godawful frame for the job, it's on you. Not the frame.
Loki can't use Fleeting Expertise either if they want to use invisibility, which is pretty much their main ability. Why would you make a "disarm build"? It is inferior to other Warframes' CC... And they CAN hit you, they will run up and do so. And you are now dealing with movement issues since they will crowd around you, whereas Blessing/Snow Globe do not have such issues. I kind of gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were invisible while running into the middle of hostile NPCs. If you are claiming to have done that in high duration/level survival without invisibility you are lying. Simple as that.
Snow Globe modded for range is not a gamble. It helps prevent a lot of issues. Ranged tend to just keep shooting at you with it up, they aren't going to run into the bubble unless the frost placed it poorly. Even if some do they are slowed, and like I already said you can use other viable cc in conjunction with Snow Globe.
Actually I stated that if you enjoy playing Loki go ahaid and do that in lower difficulty content, but don't make BS excuses as to why you are using an inferior warframe. New players, that don't even know how useless Loki is compared to other frames, should not be attempting difficult content.
The last time I was knocked down by a shield lancer was like 3 months ago. And it took me a couple seconds to get back up and I was fine. Your example of several lancers cornering you has never happened to me, even when I had no clue what I was doing. Now if it could literally dis-arm Ancients I could see a use. But it can't. I would assume the reason you get hit by so many lancers is because you are running up to them trying to cast disarm...
It is great and all that you know the difference between a damage spell and utility spells... but it has no relevance to anything I said. (You actually have it slightly wrong though, CC is utility, damage is not, thus Roar is not a utility skill.) I am not confused about anything. You seem to be though.
"RE:" (Which should be ""I.E.:" for you, but ironically works for me since this is a direct response) We were talking about the usefulness of different Warframes, and I was saying that bringing that warframe is more useful than bringing a Loki. Your implecations are invalid. I initially stated that damage abilities would be more useful than what little Loki has to offer, you replied that damage abilities were not as good as weapon damage, and I gave that as one of several examples of why you are wrong. (Because it multiplies weapon damage.)
If the description told you to jump off a bridge would you? The description is just wrong. Its sort of like how Saryn's description tries to overplay how useful Shed is. It isn't even worth wasting a slot on. Or how Volt is supposed to be an "alternative to gunplay", yet one of it's best abilities is a shield that enhances your guns' damage... It is a Warframe with invisibility and a really poor CC. There are plenty of equivalents. And lol @ decoy, you make it more and more obvious that you have no high level experience. Decoys don't scale at all, so they die ultra fast. They also create line of sight issues, which is especially annoying for other players.
And simply not dying with a frame that turns invisible is not an accomplishment. If you aren't really contributing to the group and just sort of doing your own thing, then why play a multiplayer game? I'm assuming you mean the old rating system 100, which is not impressive either. Difficult content doesn't even really go by level any more.
Vithy:
You should really start snipping the quotes if we're going to continue this, you know. Also, I'm going to ignore stupid things you say that don't have any argumentative value. Anyway:
Why Disarm? Because Invisibility DOESN'T HELP YOUR TEAMMATES. If you think Loki's Invisibility is his only saving grace, you're [sic] got a lot to learn. I don't need to be invisible to disarm things that are threatening my team; with my loadout, if I hear gunfire that sounds even remotely hostile (I usually don't even see it), I press 4 and win the game. You claim to be such an expert player, yet you find a mob of enemies trying to melee you to actually be a problem? Sorry to be blunt, but that smells like noob to me. :/
RE: Shield Lancers: Three months huh. Been playing Rhino? Either way, you did get knocked down, didn't you. It didn't matter that you got back up without getting killed; it mattered that you could have. And the corner-rape of Lancers actually happened to a teammate, and I wasn't on Loki at the time.
I just read through to the end of your reply and you know what? I'm ending this "debate" now, even though I could have ended it several posts ago because of how thoroughly I was crushing you. If you think Molt ("Shed"? HAHAHAHAHAHA) is useless, you're clearly using it wrong. If you think Decoy is useless, you're clearly using it wrong, as it's better than Molt in some respects. In fact, I'd wager that you use a LOT of Warframes/abilities wrong. You're a case of L2P, sorry to say.
Don't reply to this anymore. Seriously. Go play CoD or some other generic shooter game that doesn't require skill or creativity. Yes, you were just insulted by a woman. About video games. Hope you aren't too traumatized.
Oh and FYI, "i.e." stands for "id est", which means "in other words" (literal translation: "that is"). Usage example: "Loki can disarm enemies; i.e., he takes away their guns." Try to keep that in mind to avoid further embarassing yourself in the future.
You should really start snipping the quotes if we're going to continue this, you know. Also, I'm going to ignore stupid things you say that don't have any argumentative value. Anyway:
Why Disarm? Because Invisibility DOESN'T HELP YOUR TEAMMATES. If you think Loki's Invisibility is his only saving grace, you're [sic] got a lot to learn. I don't need to be invisible to disarm things that are threatening my team; with my loadout, if I hear gunfire that sounds even remotely hostile (I usually don't even see it), I press 4 and win the game. You claim to be such an expert player, yet you find a mob of enemies trying to melee you to actually be a problem? Sorry to be blunt, but that smells like noob to me. :/
RE: Shield Lancers: Three months huh. Been playing Rhino? Either way, you did get knocked down, didn't you. It didn't matter that you got back up without getting killed; it mattered that you could have. And the corner-rape of Lancers actually happened to a teammate, and I wasn't on Loki at the time.
I just read through to the end of your reply and you know what? I'm ending this "debate" now, even though I could have ended it several posts ago because of how thoroughly I was crushing you. If you think Molt ("Shed"? HAHAHAHAHAHA) is useless, you're clearly using it wrong. If you think Decoy is useless, you're clearly using it wrong, as it's better than Molt in some respects. In fact, I'd wager that you use a LOT of Warframes/abilities wrong. You're a case of L2P, sorry to say.
Don't reply to this anymore. Seriously. Go play CoD or some other generic shooter game that doesn't require skill or creativity. Yes, you were just insulted by a woman. About video games. Hope you aren't too traumatized.
Oh and FYI, "i.e." stands for "id est", which means "in other words" (literal translation: "that is"). Usage example: "Loki can disarm enemies; i.e., he takes away their guns." Try to keep that in mind to avoid further embarassing yourself in the future.
Vilthy [sic], actually you lack the experience to realize that you are grasping at straws and making up invalid discussion points based on false information for high difficulty content.
And the Decoy guides actually suggest intentionally exploiting glitches in the game such as making it fall through the ground or placing it in unreachable cracks. When a Warframe NEEDS to glitch out their abilities in ways not intended to be possible just to be sort of useful, but still less so than other Warframes... it speaks volumes on how useless the Warframe is IMO. I certainly would say that glitching your abilities is not using them properly.
Vithy:
If by "false information" you mean actual, personal experience, then yeah, I guess you could say I'm making shit up. I've "only" played 1200+ hours of missions with a 95-96% completion rate, after all; what do I know? Oh, and here's something to chew on: If placing Decoy in those "glitched" positions actually were glitches, it would have been patched out LONG ago. Like before-open-beta ago.
And I told you to stop replying. CoD moar, scrub.
If by "false information" you mean actual, personal experience, then yeah, I guess you could say I'm making shit up. I've "only" played 1200+ hours of missions with a 95-96% completion rate, after all; what do I know? Oh, and here's something to chew on: If placing Decoy in those "glitched" positions actually were glitches, it would have been patched out LONG ago. Like before-open-beta ago.
And I told you to stop replying. CoD moar, scrub.